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European Union Membership Referendum Thursday 23rd June 2016

Discussion in 'In The News' started by vaska00762, 21 February 2016.

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Poll closed 23 June 2016.
  1. Remain a member of the European Union

    80.0%
  2. Leave the European Union

    20.0%
  1. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    On the 23rd June 2016, we will vote in only the 3rd nationwide referendum. This referendum will ask one of the most important questions of our era.

    As I'm well aware, this thread (my thread) has existed, and has done so. However, it is a 2 year old thread, focussed on the merits of the EU and was a general discussion.

    We now have a referendum, and now the prospects of staying in the EU on a permanent basis or leaving it are now real realities, and either one of them could happen. In the run up to the referndum, there will be local and regional elections, more politicians will express their views, multiple opinion polls will be carried out and developments with the campaigns will also occur.

    So what do you think about this referendum? How will you be voting? Are you involved in any campaigns? What do you think of what politicians, broadcasters, columnists or other personalities are saying? What result do you expect from the referendum?
     
  2. vcgriffin

    vcgriffin the (Quie Deaf) mustached Subgenius pony

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    While we wait for Borris to give his speech and launch us all off the white cliffs of dover.....
    Take a look at the official tie for the 'Grassroots out' campaign (lead by Mr Farage) and their natty website
    While the Leave.EU team appears to have hired a web designer (and registered a .EU domain)

    And I think we sould all refect that they Stay in team is officaly known as
    Britam Stronger in Europe , or to abbreviate to BSE , I am hoping they get former Minister of Agriculture, John Gummer to head that one. - (bbc archive)

    Here's Boris:
     
    #2 vcgriffin, 21 February 2016
    Last edited: 21 February 2016
  3. janglehooves

    janglehooves Proud to be an earth pony!

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    I don't think there will be any surprise as to which way I am voting, I will be making like a tree as the old saying goes...:) Cameron's "negotiations" were nicely stage-managed and I'm sure he enjoyed playing the shuttle diplomat but they certainly haven't changed my mind. I haven't joined any campaign group yet but it is likely I will sign up with Grassroots Out (unless another one pops up - things move pretty fast on the Leave side...:p)
     
  4. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    While I hold the opinion that David Cameron's "renegotiation" was an utter waste of time, I am probably one of the most pro-EU voters out there. I'm already ready to submit a policy to my Students' Union that if voted on should mean they would campaign to remain in, and I'm interested in what I can do locally to help my party in campaigning.

    I'm both relieved (and disappointed) that the vote will take place in June, just over a month after the Northern Irish Assembly elections here, but before I go on to my ERASMUS+ placement (organised by the European Commission) as part of my degree. Anyway, it's here and it's time to get stuck in, or so I hope. The mess that is the timing means that there's the 2 votes in quick succession which I find very annoying.

    I've noticed that "Britain Stronger in Europe" has renamed itself in Scotland, calling itself "Scotland Stronger in Europe" and likewise "Northern Ireland Stronger In Europe". I think they've gone for the more simple "Stronger In" name for their overall campaign.

    We've yet to see who becomes the official "out" campaign, but my senses do tell me that whoever gets chosen, there will be more fighting between the different "out" groups because they aren't eurosceptic enough, or they aren't using the "right" arguments.
     
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  5. Somerset Cider

    Somerset Cider Old Pony

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    David Cameron's negotiations smacked of appeasement, we tried that in 1939 and look where that got us!

    I was around when Ted Heath took us into the EEC and that was a good thing, but this European super state governed by unelected officials in Brussels I don't like so will be voting out.
    Having worked for many years in farming the Common Agricultural Policy has been a complete disaster for the British family farm and living in Cornwall for a lot of years the Common Fisheries Policy has decimated the trawler fleet.

    I suspect that age will have an influence on the way you vote the younger will vote 'in' the older (like me) will more likely vote out.
    It will be like the Scottish Referendum, too close to call till the votes are counted, but I suspect that the fear of change will have the deciding influence and we will stay in.

    Another reason I ill vote 'out' is that any thing the government wants that badly has got to be bad for us!
     
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  6. Loganberry

    Loganberry Element of Custard

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    Another unsurprising declaration: I will vote Remain. I have various reservations about the governance of the EU, but none of them are strong enough to change my mind. In principle at least, I'd actually support a federal Europe, though only if it meant much greater local/regional devolution -- my everyday life is more affected by centralisation in London than it is by centralisation in Brussels.
    I broadly agree with that: I think that the pro-EU people absolutely have to get young voters to turn out. If they can match what happened in the Scottish IndyRef, then Remain should win fairly comfortably. On the other hand, if we get something like the last UK general election, where young voters mostly stayed at home but older voters turned out in droves, then Leave's chances are much better.

    From my side of the fence, a major worry I have is of a complacent, lazy Remain campaign. The AV referendum shows what can happen -- the country was roughly 2:1 in favour of AV when it was called, but the Yes campaign was absolutely appalling and the actual vote was a comfortable win for No.
     
  7. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    I have my doubts that this complacency will occur. While the fear is that the "remain" side might get overconfident with the prospect of being more likely to win, being complacent is certainly not my concern. The fact that "leave" now has popular political figures like Boris Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith, that's in addition to celebrities like Michael Caine, "remain" will certainly have to either roll out the personalities or improve the rhetoric.
    As for the AV referendum, the problem I think plagued it was the abysmal 42.2% turnout. Some people don't even believe it ever took place (including my parents)! No doubt this referendum will see a higher turnout, but here's hoping that the public at least is informed.
     
  8. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    Under normal circumstances it would be an easy out of the EU vote (as it means our fishing fleets can fish without the threat of punishment by the EU, gives more power back to British farmers and allows us more control over immigration and makes trade with non EU members easier as we don't have to be loyal to other member states plus non of the onesize fits all EU regulations)

    However I am not sure the present government could be trusted with the amount of power leaving the EU would grant them such as not having to follow EU human rights most importantly those connected to emploment rights and disability rights.
     
  9. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    I'll likely be voting to stay in but if anything it's Cameron's renegotiation that makes me question that. I think the EU should be for the benefit of all the people of Europe without any one country getting special treatment, what makes us special? Doing that kind of undermines the whole principle, and if anything I can only see that it would make the UK a second-class member. Also to vote to stay in would be a boost to Cameron, and we've not been given the opportunity to vote on whether we even want reform, I'm worried that a vote to stay in would also be seen as a vote endorsing the renegotiation and it would be difficult to turn around on that without another referendum, and I think those things may influence some people. Don't get me wrong, the EU definitely needs some serious reform but not focused on one country.

    But I still think there's too much to lose in leaving. Just for one example, the right to live and work in the EU is a big freedom to just throw away.

    If you really don't trust the government that much, wouldn't voting out just give them more (direct) power?
     
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  10. janglehooves

    janglehooves Proud to be an earth pony!

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    It gives the government of the day more power but it also gives the British electorate more power because we will be able to appoint or dismiss a government that makes all of our legislation (as we used to do). At the moment, we have no vote on the Commission which is the real power at the centre of the EU. The European parliament is a rather empty gesture as we can elect MEPs but the chances of their being able to do anything that reflects the will of the British electorate is entirely dependant on whether it happens to coinicide with the will of enough MEPs from the other member countries (which is not very often...). This lack of democratic accountability in the EU is one of my major reasons for wanting to leave.

    I wouldn't trust the Tories on a bunch of stuff but the referendum is about more than just the current government (and you have made some very good points as to why we should be leaving :)). If we don't like the government, we can go to the ballot box and boot them out but we can't do the same to the European Commission.
     
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  11. Silver Broom

    Silver Broom Tireless Traveller

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    Absolutely voting to stay in, for many reasons, and here are just a few:

    • For a start I rather like the fact I have the right to travel to, live in and work in any other EU country I choose. I have no intention of voting to have that right taken away from me.
    • Leaving the EU would put a serious number of jobs at risk - including those at UK branches of multinational companies, and it could jeopardise the livelihoods of existing British citizens working on the continent, as well as vice versa.
    • By remaining in the EU, we can import things from anywhere else in the EU and not pay import duty. If we left, many products bought in the UK would become more expensive if they have had to be imported, or if any of their raw materials have been.

    One reason often cited by those favouring an exit from the EU is more control over own laws. My feelings on this have been touched on fairly well already:

    I don't trust the current government either with that, but regardless of which government happens to be in power today, these issues need a wider forum as a check and balance as you don't know what future power might abuse its responsibilities over human rights.
    Many EU standards are for consumer rights and benefits, as well, for example:
    • the right to return or cancel any goods or services purchased online within 14 days
    • the right to a specified level of compensation from your airline if your flight is delayed by more than 3 hours
    • capped mobile phone charges within the EU (this is a huge benefit to consumers as non-EU roaming charges can be astronomical)
    If we weren't in the EU we probably wouldn't have any of the above benefits as you could bet your bottom dollar that retailers/airlines/telecoms companies would lobby against it. By their nature as well, since these things will often be inter-country transactions, they require EU-wide standardisation and co-operation.


    Another concern of mine in the event of an EU exit would be the subsequent political (in)stability in the UK – particularly in Scotland where there is likely to be a strong vote for Remain (current polling at 64% according to Poll of Polls, see Channel 4 analysis - also N.Ireland at 75% Remain).
     
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  12. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    We would need electoral reform for that, the tories only got 36.9% of the vote at the election after all. I'd rather have two flawed systems, each checking each other, but the best thing would be to reform both systems.

    Isn't that how democracy works though? I wouldn't expect something to go through unless it reflects the will of the majority in the parliament.
     
  13. Cloudane

    Cloudane Element of Mostly Excessive Verbosity

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    Together is better IMO. It's just as they say in MLP - just because we have our differences doesn't mean we can't work them out and still be friends. Obviously it's a little more complicated than that as it affects how we're governed, but I think as a general rule in life unity is progress and division is a step backward.
     
  14. Wisdom Pen

    Wisdom Pen Residential Philosopher and Wizard of Lincoln

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    Aside from everything I do find myself rather wanting to give David Cameron a lot of credit for going through with the referendum when he has made it very clear that he would of much preferred it to of not been up to debate it shows a fair degree of integrity that I honestly didn't believe he had in him.

    Also the one thing I consider that convinces me the most that we need to stay in is that if we leave the EU then 4million+ British nationals that are currently living in EU countries will all have to come straight back home and this isn't 20,000 refugees no these are entitled official British people who will cause a major and direct strain on the economy, this combined with the multiple businesses who have agreed they would stop dealing with the UK if we leave I think we could very easily throw ourselves back into another recession if we are not careful.
     
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  15. janglehooves

    janglehooves Proud to be an earth pony!

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    It is indeed how democracy works but it means that the British electorate will never have any democratic sanction over the process that results in significant amounts of legislation in this country. Not that the European Parliament has much influence anyway as the real power is in the hands of the Commission and nobody has voted for them - they have essentially got where they are through cronyism. The Tories may only have got 36.9% but at least we got a chance to vote...

    On your first point, well that's up to you but I would venture to say that there are plenty of British expats in countries with which we don't have political union. There may be a bit more red tape involved but it's by no means a block...
    On the question of jobs, that's the "project fear" line but it doesn't add up, particularly as some major employers have already said that they are committed to the UK whether we remain in the EU or not. Sure, Cameron's Bullingdon Club mates in the city are nervous (which I daresay is why he's so keen to stay in) as they are always risk averse but seeing as the financial industry is global rather than regional I doubt very much that there would be a mass exit. Personally, if some bankers and stockbrokers end up out of a job I won't be too upset as we need a bit of a re-balance but I don't think for a minute that it would ever come to that.
    There will be no problem with import duty as we will get a very favourable trade deal with the EU - our massive trade deficit (and the fact that with the Euro in the state it is the EU can't afford a trade war) will ensure that is so.
    I see no reason why we wouldn't have consumer rights outside of the EU and in fact we would have more control over them as we would be voting for governments that will be fully responsible and accountable. Of course, the lobbyists will be lobbying but ultimately it is the electorate who will decide who is in charge. Do you think there are no lobbyists sniffing around the (unelected) European Commission?
    As for Scotland and NI, Scotland will probably hold another referendum (NI won't because of the political situation). I could see Scotland voting out if they are guaranteed EU membership but as we saw before, that is by no means certain. I'm a unionist but if Scotland wants to go, then for me it would be a price worth paying.
    Who says they will have to come straight home? No-one is advocating kicking out all the EU nationals resident in the UK in the event of us leaving so I don't see why the EU would want to boot out UK nationals. In any case, the numbers of EU nationals over here would give us a pretty big bargaining chip...
     
  16. Wisdom Pen

    Wisdom Pen Residential Philosopher and Wizard of Lincoln

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    UKIP and a fair amount of other right wingers
     
  17. janglehooves

    janglehooves Proud to be an earth pony!

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    Have you got a source on that? I have heard Farage state that EU nationals already in the UK would not be required to leave in the event of us leaving the EU. It's not even as if UKIP and the "fair amount of other right wingers" could influence that decision anyway. And they certainly wouldn't have a say on whether UK nationals in the EU would be forced to leave, that would be up to the EU and as I have said I don't see any reason why they would want to go down that route.
     
  18. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    Let me just say this, and I'm reasonably entitled in this sence: If the UK votes to leave the EU, I'm applying for an Irish Passport as soon as that happens. Thankfully, the Irish are very content to remain in the EU, and as such are concerned that if the UK leaves, they will have to go through a lot of chaos as a result, since their economy is heavily reliant on our economy (and corporate tax avoiders).
     
  19. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    Its non of their concern whether we leave or not, this one the biggest annoyances of the whole debate other nations deciding on our behalf whether we should leave or stay.
     
  20. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    I don't blame you there, if you can do that where you are it seems sensible.

    It may not be their decision but it is their concern if whether we leave or not affects them.
     

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