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European Union Membership Referendum Thursday 23rd June 2016

Discussion in 'In The News' started by vaska00762, 21 February 2016.

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Poll closed 23 June 2016.
  1. Remain a member of the European Union

    80.0%
  2. Leave the European Union

    20.0%
  1. Cloudane

    Cloudane Element of Mostly Excessive Verbosity

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    Would think the poll was an indicator of what'll happen, but thought that in the GE - the vast majority here were voting lab or lib, and the cons won very comfortably.

    Same with Facebook, almost everyone I knew was like "anyone but the tories" (and now almost everyone I know is posting remain propaganda)

    The echo chamber effect is strong indeed when we hang around likeminded people so much

    Tend to agree it'll be like I recall Scotland being - very tight, but just remain by a hair.

    Insane amounts of fear mongering and mud slinging from both sides make it nigh on impossible to make an objective decision but everything I believe about the progression of human society goes with the old saying "united we stand, divided we fall" so still intending to vote remain. I just wish this whole thing hadn't happened in the first place as the uncertainty is said to have caused the economy a fair amount of damage. I'm inclined to blame it for the possibility of being out of a job come July.
     
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  2. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    I am interested in how the vote will divide demographicly.
    I think traditional labour voters will go leave.
    Rural areas will favour leave.
    Big cities will go remain, smaller towns leave.
    Swing voters remain.

    I think will will find out how much a divided nation the UK actually is in terms of political views. (Much like the US election will highlight over there).
     
    fiddlepony likes this.
  3. CrikeyoRilley

    CrikeyoRilley Supplier of Apples and Apple Accessories.

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    My town is a cesspool of bickering out voters. Immigrants this and they took oooor jerbs that. Overall I'm more happy in confidence it will be a remain vote, but should it swing the other way then I'm prepared to deal with it.

    Can't wait till its over tbh so people on both sides can get over it, but for a while I can only see the nation being divided until some form of terror attack happens to divert everyone's attention.
     
  4. TheDamnedScribe

    TheDamnedScribe Royal Guard Armourer

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    Dilemma:

    I like the idea of a union of nations, but I dislike the current union.
     
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  5. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    Same here.

    A loose confederation of nations that are free to work together or do their own thing depending on their situation is better, for a healthy union all nations should be able accept their differences even if they disagree with them.
    The EU is far to one size fits all and is obsessed with its own image and branding, why does the EU need a flag?, why does it need EU passports? why is obsessed with forming an EU identity, all its members have their own unique ones and don't need a generic one.
     
  6. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    The "one size" stuff really only refers to common regulations and rules relating to the single market and allows for an equal playing field across all countries. The idea is that no one country can undermine its neighbour with regulations that are more lax or with certain things that give companies benefits over others. Of course some variations do occur with some things such as tax and minimum wages, etc. but the basic principle is that there is a common framework withing the single market.
    As for the the whole identity of the EU, I think that's probably understandable. I mean, why does the Commonwealth have its own flag, image, branding, etc. Why are some people so obsessed with forming a Commonwealth identity? I mean, most Commonwealth countries want nothing to do with each other unless its sport!

    As for the EU passport thing, I have to debunk that, because we are given British (or Irish) passports by the Home Office (or the Department of Justice and Equality). The passports we're given only demonstrate to people that we are also Citizens of Europe from being a citizen in an EU member country.
    The only thing that's worth mentioning is that (with the exception of the UK, which issues passports to British Subjects in dependencies not in the EU) all passports issued in the EU feature the words "European Union" in the country's language on the front. That's it. There's no plan to create a single EU passport, there's no plan to create some single EU ID card, there's none of that.
    So when Nigel Farage says he's holding an "EU passport, when it should be a British passport", he clearly can't read.
     
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  7. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    The flag of Europe was originally meant to represent the whole of the continent, it's not technically a flag of the EU, it predates the EU.
     
  8. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    But nations should be allowed to plan their own economic policy outside of a union to suit their needs.
    The Commonwealth works much better as it is loose organisation, as it carries no real weight apart from being a group of nations with a shared identity, a Europian grouping would work much better as such.

    Then there is no need what so ever for the EU to be written on British Passports it goes back to my original point of the EU being obsessive and controlling.

    Its still pointless and meaningless and besides most of Europe is still not represented by said flag.
     
  9. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    Huh? Countries already control their economic policy. The UK does that at least twice a year, it's called the Budget and the Autumn Statement. What do you mean by "outside of a union" anyway? EU member states have their own economic policies and so on, the only harmonisation really only affects very specific issues, and is probably doesn't have that much effect on individual countries' economic policies.

    "European Union" is literally just two words. I find it hard to believe that having two words on a passport is such a tall order.

    I also don't quite get what you mean. Pointless and meaningless is probably just your opinion, but how does it not represent most of Europe?
     
  10. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    Nations don't have full 100% control, they are bound by EU law. If we wanted to nationalise our railways or utilities we could not do on our terms, we would have to obey EU open market laws. We couldnt have a fully independent fishing policy as much of that policy is out of our hands.
    EU law is always there in the background, it may or may not permit our economic plans, but if it does we can't say not these are our policy's not yours.

    Two words that are not needed, UK, France, Germany only is good enough.

    Oh you know all those European countries like Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Belarus, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland etc which arnt EU members or do they not count as European nations?
     
  11. Loganberry

    Loganberry Element of Custard

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    Always the problem with a yes/no referendum. I suppose it's not that much different from a general election -- there's never been a party whose manifesto I agreed with all of. So on Thursday I have the choice of two imperfect options. My own mind is made up that Remain is the better option for the UK (and for me), but I suspect there are a lot of people who feel just as you do.
     
  12. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

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    That's correct, but the other point is that all the nations are bound. We're not exactly being unfairly bound if our neighbouring countries are bound by the same rules. Plus if we're going into this debate, we could be here for hours. More or less, about 30-35% of laws/rules/directives/etc. are from the EU, and we're bound to. A large amount of the regulations don't even apply to us due to various opt outs for for the absence of whatever.
    Common fishing policies are important from an environmental perspective since fish migrate and are not bound by borders. If a nation started overfishing and caused another country to loose its fish stocks, there would probably be an even worse situation for fishing. Read up on the Cod Wars between the UK and Iceland, and consider whether or not another conflict could occur between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, or the UK and France, or maybe the UK and Spain. Yes, I'll admit that the Common Fisheries Policy has flaws and certainly needs a total overhaul, but a lot of people don't realise that fishing, when unregulated, causes serious environmental damage that can possibly be permanent.

    Not needed? I think they're just as relevant as "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", or "République française" or "Bundesrepublik Deutschland". Those words provide two pieces of information, that the passport holder is the citizen of that country, and that country is part of the European Union. That's it. To have an issue with that is trivial IMO.

    I think you missed this:
    The Flag of Europe is the flag used by the Council of Europe, an organisation which is separate to the EU as this diagram posted in this thread also proves.
    As you can see, only Belarus, Kosovo, Kazakstan and the Vatican City are European countries which are not in the Council of Europe, which the Flag of Europe represents. The Flag of Europe is merely used by the EU and the ESA (which incidently has Canada as a member).
     
  13. Wonderbolt

    Wonderbolt Honorary Pony

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    I don't think that no EU fishing laws would result in another cod war, as UK and other nations along with fishermen and marine conservationists could develop a suitable plan for the relevant fishing ground without the EUs meddling.

    It's not trivial at all, small as it may be it highlights the EUs over inflated opinion of its self.

    Which proves my point the flag is utterly meaningless, if it's not clear what it represents, real national flags do a better job.

    Besides discontent with the EU is actually more in some nations other than the UK such as France, the Netherlands and Denmark so it would be great if they stood up to the EU to.
     
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  14. Nova Blast

    Nova Blast New Pony

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    Personally, I'll be voting leave, for a few reasons:

    1. I don't like the idea of our country's well being being at the fate of other countries. (how would you like it if what went on in your own home was dictated by the houses around you?)
    2. if we stay, our steel industry (among other industries) will eventually be shut down and we'll have to rely on bad quality chinese steel (and the chinese can't make earthquake-resistant steel like Scunthorpe can)
    3. I don't agree with us having to pay out money to other countries simply because they can't manage theirs.
    4. I don't agree with letting thousands of people into the country every year. that's not to say I hate "foreigners" or believe "they stole our jobs", far from it, I simply believe that we should be able to control how many people can enter the country every year.
     
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  15. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    I agree, in fact I'll go further and say I like in principle the idea of an 'ever-closer union', but the current EU seems to be going about things the wrong way.

    I think the EU is doing a lot of things backwards, economic integration and shared currency should have been something that happens in decades time once the union is closer and more integrated than it is now in other ways. The focus now should be on things like human rights, and workers' rights, and letting a shared identity, purpose and solidarity be something that develops naturally as a result of these things.

    Nationalisation of public services, and especially the non-involvement of the private sector in areas of key human concern like healthcare, is something that broadly I've always considered to be very important and I couldn't support anything that might be a barrier to that. We should be able to have these things as plan A, not just in special circumstances. But so as not to just present the left-wing argument; if the UK wanted, say, to abolish income tax I believe it wouldn't be able to do that either in the EU.

    So I'm leaning towards leave and I'll be amending my response to the poll above. The only thing that makes me cautious is not having any more faith in the UK government than the EU, again we really need reforms. This might cause me to not vote at all, but having researched it I can't vote for the EU (and I'm starting to think that it's better to have to reform one system than two).
     
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  16. TheDamnedScribe

    TheDamnedScribe Royal Guard Armourer

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    Goddamned COMMUNISM. It's a tarp!!!1!!!one!!eleven!!


    :p
     
  17. Recurrent Trotting

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    I'm probably going to vote in, but before I vote I want to understand the payments into the EU thing. So, ponies, help me with this :p

    Source
    [​IMG]

    huzzah so we sort of pay in £9bnish?


    [​IMG]



    Soo per week the actual figure is 8.5bn / 52 = 163461538, or 163mil / week, or 23,351,648 / day.

    So that is the hard cost and the economic benefit of remaining is a lot harder to measure.

    Soo the saving from leaving really is a lot easier to predict than staying in the union D: I guess that is quite obvious :oops:

    waaait, the government also costs money! and the economic benefit of government is also hard to measure. the leave campaign's best argument is also the best argument for anarchy :D awesome

    ooh hadn't thought muchg about EU and taxes but it does have a role there, and it is broadly hostile to anything that would exclude private enterprise.

    Like most international financial institutions the EU views a non free-market sort of economy as trouble. On the other hoof if the UK is to have an international economy then we will have to abide by those sorts of rules anyway. Possibly international finance is horribly broken :p but isn't that a problem that goes beyond the EU?
     
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  18. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

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    I tend not to look into those kinds of arguments too much. A lot of benefits and drawbacks are more important than money, and if the EU really was this great force to unite Europe and looked out for the interests and rights of ordinary Europeans you wouldn't be able to put a price on it. It comes down to whether you think the EU is a force for good enough to be worth the cost. There's also that if the UK is making a net loss financially, then maybe that money is going to parts of Europe that need it more, which I'd be fine with in theory. It's not as if the UK is a poor country, cracking down on corporate tax evasion is a more pressing concern I think.

    That won't change unless countries like the UK change it, chances of that seem small enough out of the EU but definitely won't happen within the EU.
     
  19. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Honorary Pony

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    Voting remain here.
     
  20. Loganberry

    Loganberry Element of Custard

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    Charlotte Leslie, the Conservative MP for Bristol NW, has declared for Leave:

    http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2016-06-20/bristol-north-west-mp-chooses-brexit/

    Although I disagree with her, I have to say that if more politicians had chosen the measured words that she does in her statement, especially her acknowledgement that both options are imperfect, this campaign would have been a lot more informative and less acrimonious.

    Mind you, it's hardly surprising that I disagree with a Tory MP! More thought-provoking for me personally has been the leftish argument for leave, something which @Mane25 above has mentioned elements of. Taking the specific point of rail nationalisation: I would like to see that happen, or at least be a realistic option, and if the EU goes ahead with compulsory cross-border tendering of such services in 2019 as planned then I won't support that.

    However, I am fairly well persuaded by the arguments in favour of Remain regarding the NHS, for example from Sarah Wollaston (the ex-GP Tory MP) the other week. I don't believe, either, the claim that the NHS will be better funded if we Leave. So with that and the nationalisation issue, there are two big things that personally affect me to consider -- and of the two, the NHS carries more weight in my mind. As such, my intention to vote Remain, er, remains. :p
     

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