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Feminism

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Discussion' started by Cloudane, 23 September 2014.

  1. Aethelberdia

    Aethelberdia Returning Pony

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    You sound like propaganda :p
    Yeah, guess its a valid point given Iraq's political instablity.
    Please, continue.
     
  2. blissfully✮oblivious

    blissfully✮oblivious Supreme Commander, Cat, My own rule 63, etc.

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    I see you glossed over Corneliusfingers' post there... And what exactly should I take your first sentence to mean?
     
  3. Aethelberdia

    Aethelberdia Returning Pony

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    Just the entire 'transcends borders... as it should' bit. It was funny.

    And I can't be bothered to not be a hypocrite when I'm on my phone.
     
  4. Recurrent Trotting

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    To address the specific comments by Hermione erm I mean person thing actress of Harry Potter person *goes and reads OP again* Emma Watson. She's propounding the sort of liberal feminism with which I agree :3 and I think Faust's MLP is all about too.

    The nature of gender as a non-universal sort of a fact about people which nevertheless is crushingly important to us makes it impossible to arrive at any definite conclusion about how any person should deal with gender and yet make gender a necessary fact of our lives which we've just got to respond to :( Ah well here goes :p The political conclusions that feminists have arrived at are best when they are liberal conclusions, since liberalism (at its core anyway) is capable of being universally justifiable. We've achieved a political culture that is pretty liberal, so I would agree that the most concrete liberal-feminist victories have been won. But feminism could never be 'achieved' by a society through adherence to concrete political facts, like laws etc. Feminism is about maintaining a critical, liberal state of mind towards gender. It is about embracing our physical frailties and the vital role conventional gender plays in our society, while understanding that every person should aim to be more than that and, crucially, respecting those who are. I think that's what Hermione Watson was getting at too... ish :3
     
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  5. Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony

    Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony The Laughing Mare

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    So, I was doing some thinking in the shower, and one of the pints I considered was if there's any difference between feminism and equality. For this I decided to ignore the darker factions of feminism for the moment and focus solely on those that merely want equal rights for women in areas that they're lacking. One thing struck me: I don't think I've ever seen a feminist argue for equal rights in a situation where the men's rights are lacking.
    This in itself could mark a difference between feminists and gender equalisists - all the feminists I've heard talking on the subject seem to only care about gender equality for women, whilst true gender equality is gender equality for all.
     
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  6. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    I believe this is more due to the disproportionate number of issues for women's rights than there are for men, rather than anything more nefarious.

    An example of a men's issue I have seen discussed and campaigned for often - including but not limited to people who identify as feminists - is greater fairness for fathers when it comes to questions of custody for their children. In this regard, mothers get overwhelming favour in the courts.
     
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  7. Tak

    Tak In love with a star gazing fool

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    This is a bit of a sore point for me.

    The woman who birthed me walked out when I was 5. This was in the 80s. The idea of a lone father (especially of a daughter) was so amazingly unheard of that I was subjected to weekly social services visits. These visits included sniffing my underwear to check I wasn't being abused. My dad had to put up with mothers trying to chase him away from school gates when he was picking me up, and sales assistants asking him to leave shops because they "didn't want his type" there.

    I still say I'm a feminist and to me that does mean gender equality.
     
  8. Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony

    Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony The Laughing Mare

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    Ah, that's just another version of the "There are many more problems for women in Saudi Arabia than in the UK, so we should only talk about Saudi Arabia and not the UK" fallacy.
    Ultimately, as long as they're aiming for equality even when it downgrades women, we're in agreement, regardless of our choice of terms to describe ourselves.
     
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  9. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    Not quite. Sorry for my ambiguous phrasing, let me try again.

    I didn't mean it to come across "there are more women's issues therefore we may only discuss women's issues", but more that because there are many more women's issues you're more likely to be discussing them. Just by sheer volume and probability, and people who are speaking about their own experiences as victims are more likely to come from the group that has larger numbers of victims.

    I hope I got across what I was trying to say better that time.

    Wow, that's awful Tak. I'm really sorry to hear that - I didn't mean to dredge anything up by using that particular example.
     
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  10. Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony

    Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony The Laughing Mare

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    Sorry, I meant that not as a you're doing such a thing but more that some feminists do so ;)

    This of course is the problem with combining human nature with using any type of grouping: all feminists are going to be at least slightly different to each other in opinion, as are all christians, all bronies, all coffee fanatics, etc.
     
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  11. servirare

    servirare hmmmmm

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    As a member of this community, I'm somewhat surprised you'd think this (more soon). Sure great strides have been made: as I was typing this, I received the comment "well, it's not considered a victory for me to have a job now instead of being [figuratively] chained to a sink". Plenty of pernicious attitudes still remain, and these end up being harmful to both genders.

    So, to bring a small example from close to home.

    Bronies are considered weird. People who watch "transformers" are not. Why? Well, the reason is that MLP is "for girls" and therefore must be bad. People don't like bad things so bronies, particularly male ones, must have some other reason for liking MLP.

    The logic on that is fundamentally anti-feminist: "for girls = bad". And yet it also negatively impacts you (assuming you're male) because now you're doing something socially stigmatized.

    On a similar note, there are lots of insults men levy at each other which essentially compare the target to being female in some way. This is still indicative of an attitude that somehow women are worse. This then perpetuates all sorts of awful gender steroe types which people force themselves into because to do otherwise would make them a "lesser man" or "a bit of a woman" (an insult I heard used recently). That sort of thing is harmful all round.

    If feminism actually achieves its goals, then why would there be a stigma attached to being a bit more like something equally good?

    That, however is just one facet of a still multifaceted problem. There are other facets too, like simple outright bias:

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

    I could go on bringing more studies, facts and figures and anecdotes up here, but that might get tedious.

    To summarise, the number of people saying things like "women belong in the kitchen not in a job like this" has thankfully dwindled to a very small number of dedicated bigots. However, subtle but powerful biases still remain. Not only do they harm women's interests (e.g. not getting hired), but they probably harm your interests too.



    What do you even mean by that? You are free to campaign for Iraqi womens' rights if you wish. Only you can answer the question as to why you are not already. To start, you can simply join one of the groups already campaigning for such things.

    If, however, you feel that people should try to fix every problem simultaneously in the world before fixing any individual problem then you are essentially asserting that you believe no one should try to fix anything.

    The third option seems to be that people should only try to fix the worst problems first. That has the same end result that nothing gets fixed because some of the worst places are more or less unfixable.
     
  12. Recurrent Trotting

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    was watching a random movie (I love you man) and just had another thought about this topic:

    the more that a character is expressive of their femininity in media (especially a 'flamboyantly' feminine character) the more the portrayal ends up mono-dimensional. It is only where you get media directed at a feminine audience, like MLP, that the personality of flamboyant feminine characters comes through. Rarity and Flutter especially would be reduced to caricatures I think. Interestingly the degree to which a person can be feminine or masculine before they are considered flamboyant about their gender varies by sex. A slightly feminine male character readily becomes a caricature in media ( which is what happens in I love you man). Girls that embrace stereotypically male preoccupation with sports/competition like Rainbow Dash would also readily be reduced to a stereotypical tomboy in most media.
     
    #52 Recurrent Trotting, 1 October 2014
    Last edited: 1 October 2014
  13. XBPonyA

    XBPonyA Pegulsus is best boyfriend <3

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    Unfortunately i think that Feminists get a bad rap because of the so called Feminazis. I consider myself a humanist rather then a Feminist because i agree that everyone should be equal.
    Unfortunately there is still a lot of sex discrimination in the world but it is not just toward women and i think that some extreme Feminists need to begin to understand that not every single man in the world wants to hurt them.
     
  14. Cuttleshock

    Cuttleshock Shuffle Champion

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    I consider myself a feminist rather than a humanist because... the direct action taken by the movement I support in order to bring about gender equality is getting rid of discrimination of all kinds against the definitely more oppressed gender, females. Emma Watson said it wonderfully in the video at the start of this thread: by improving treatment of women, we will indirectly get rid of discrimination against men as well. And so I'm fairly sure our first step to equality is to raise women up the scale.

    Maybe, after wage gaps and preventions of religious roles being held by women and unethical cultural practices and more all effectively disappear, I will call myself a humanist and focus more on the right of all genders to express themselves in any way they want without judgement by others or stifling of their own selves. For now? I feel I have to focus on the largest issue.
     
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  15. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    It's important to bear in mind that none of these labels are mutually exclusive. Am I a:

    Feminist? Yes.
    Humanist? Yes.
    Equalist? Yes.
    Egalitarian? Yes.

    If I missed any feel free to mentally add them onto that list. They all have the same goals, being a feminist does not stop me being any of the other things, because they're all the same thing. Seeking equal treatment for women is also implicitly seeking equal treatment for men because that's what equal means! Make one side equal, you make the other equal. Q.E.D.

    So, pick a label! They're all fine.
     
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  16. Pony X

    Pony X Unsilent Majority

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    I am against feminism, not gender equality. But it seems that feminism is increasingly becoming less about that. I will post a number of links which I hope will explain what I mean.

    Feminists attack liberty by changing the rules of consent.
    How will this promote gender equality?

    Feminists try to remove WWII commemorative statue.
    This is an attempt at censorship, how will it promote gender equality?

    20 universities have banned the song Blurred Lines, because its lyrics apparently 'glorify rape'.
    More censorship. Why focus on that one song? There are many songs with worse lyrics, e.g. Brown Sugar. Why not ban that?

    The arch-feminist Harriet Harman wants all-women shortlists for candidate selection.
    This is sexism, the direct opposite of the supposed goal of feminism. More sexism will not help gender equality. I hope Harman is in a minority among feminists in this.

    The myth of rape culture.
    Feminists often try to convince us it does exist, when it really doesn't. How does this promote gender equality?
     
  17. WelshPony

    WelshPony Habitual Pony

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    Those are just extremists, and they exist everywhere. Feminists hate these people too.
     
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  18. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    ^ Yes exactly what WelshPony said. Imagine if you replaced the word 'Feminists' in all those links with the word 'Americans' or possibly 'Christians'. That does not exactly make them representative, and it wouldn't make anyone else who happened to be American or Christian guilty by association.

    Although, for the record, there is something of a rape culture. Certainly one that somewhat tolerates the treatment of women as sex objects, and puts pressures on young men to treat sex as a conquest, and something they are entitled to. So I disagree on that point. Yes, rape is accepted as a horrific crime and committing that crime is a heinous act of an individual, but what is one of the many things that influences an individual's actions? The culture and society they are exposed to.

    Easy parallel example: gun culture in the US. While shooting another person to death is an awful crime and an individual choice, it's no coincidence that it happens far more often in a culture where guns are an accepted part of everyday life. A violent culture may not be the defining factor in violent crime, but it is a contributing factor.

    While the article is right to say that culture shouldn't be blamed for the crime and that we should avoid "hysteria" about it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
     
    #58 Britpoint, 11 October 2014
    Last edited: 11 October 2014
  19. Pony X

    Pony X Unsilent Majority

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    Christianity is the world's largest religion, and Americans are a nationality. But feminism is an ideology, and as with any ideology, one would expect adherents of that ideology to have a specific set of beliefs.

    There is no evidence for rape culture. Rape is taken very seriously, as it should be. There is no 'culture of normalizing rape'.


    I would not call Harriet Harman an extremist. Are all those students extremist? Also, the idea of rape culture is very much part of mainstream feminism.
     
  20. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    ...Like Christianity? I mean come on, Christians even have a book to follow and they don't all believe the same thing! Why do you expect people under the banner of feminism to do so? The only thing all Christians agree on is that Jesus came and died for our sins, similarly the only defining ideal of feminism is 'equality for women' or perhaps 'women's rights'. Beyond that there is any number of variations.

    But there is a culture of objectifying women, pressuring men to treat sex as a conquest and conditioning men to feel entitled to it. There is a culture of 'assuming consent' and shaming women who claim they've been raped. There is a culture of defending famous people who have been accused of rape. There is a culture where people don't see anything wrong with looking at naked photos of celebrities without their consent once they have been hacked off their phones. There is a culture of victim blaming (I've lost count how many times I've seen people remark on scantily clad women that they are 'asking for it').

    This is perhaps not a normalisation and acceptance of rape itself, but of many of the contributing factors that lead to it. Hence, a rape culture.

    After re-reading that article I'm not sure I would either. Her suggestion was a legitimate way or trying to solve a real inequality problem - although personally I (and many other feminists) would disagree that her way was the right way to go about it. It's not the best idea to fight inequality with more inequality there.

    Although you say you wouldn't call her an extremist... you were the one who called her "the arch-feminist".
     
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