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Feminism

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Discussion' started by Cloudane, 23 September 2014.

  1. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    "How far did you get?" "Don't worry, I hear she puts out when she's drunk." "You need to get laid".

    To many men, how successful someone was at acquiring sex is the primary measure of how well their date went. They'll discuss tactics beforehand. I'm sure plenty of us have heard gross conversations like that over the years.

    Yeah, by the cops and the media, if you're lucky. There are plenty of punters in the club though who'll think she was asking for it. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but there's a significant minority.

    Yeah. Once they'd been convicted. Before that there was a hell of a lot of "she's definitely just lying for attention" being thrown around.

    Possibly? I don't know the particulars of that case and I don't quite understand the point you're making. Sorry.
     
  2. WelshPony

    WelshPony Habitual Pony

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    This thread will just go on and on, and it's going to damage friendships. This type of thing will never be resolved, so there's no point starting arguments about it.
     
  3. blissfully✮oblivious

    blissfully✮oblivious Supreme Commander, Cat, My own rule 63, etc.

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    True, but the question is why rape is under-reported. I fear the answer is that rape simply isn't dealt with sensitively enough by the criminal justice system, and the law on the subject hardly helps matters. The closure of most of the Sexual Assault Centres that previously existed within police forces means that victims are dealt with by ordinary police officers who aren't specialists in dealing with sexual offences and thus are less likely to deal with these vulnerable victims in the appropriate manner. Then there is the law itself, which being based around consent leads to the issue of victims essentially being put on trial themselves (see below).

    Just because they should doesn't mean they are unfortunately. The defence needs to prove there was consent, and its therefore in their interests to establish any pattern they can that may lead to the belief on the part of the jury (and these are the people they need to convince, and they are allowed to decide cases on any basis they want since they don't have to account for their decision) that there was consent in the circumstances of the case. They may do that by raising any previous relationship between the defendant and victim, or any previous sexual encounters between the two of them.

    The problem is that research on mock juries conducted by Ellison and Munro gives reason to be cautious about the effectiveness of juries and jurors in rape cases. Many jurors in their study looked for wildly unrealistic levels of injury and went to extreme lengths to explain the injuries that were present (in their scenario, bruising) and in one of the trials where the complainant's demeanour was calm only one juror explained that on the basis of the trauma of rape whilst the others counted it heavily against her. As for the law, they found that jurors just didn't understand it at all, which is problematic if jurors are told by the defence that the victim could still have consented if, for instance, she was unconscious, drugged, or falsely imprisoned at the time. The thing is the defence are entitled to do that as its the law. If the jurors then don't understand what the judge tells them and place too great a weight on any statements like that from the defence then the likelihood is that they will be less likely to convict than they would otherwise be.

    With respect, citing three articles from the same source doesn't prove there isn't a rape culture on campus and it flies in the face of an awful lot of things I have personally seen and heard in my two and a bit years here. The Ministry of Justice states that female full time students demonstrate a higher risk of victimisation than the general population (p.14) and as to lad culture, I refer you to the NUS' own report, compiled by Dr Alison Phillips of the University of Sussex, which specifically contradicts the spiked article to which you linked, stating:

    "Lad culture’ was defined by our participants as a group or ‘pack’ mentality residing in activities such as sport and heavy alcohol consumption, and ‘banter’ which was often sexist, misogynist and homophobic. It was also thought to be a sexualised culture which involved the objectification of women and rape supportive attitudes, and occasionally spilled over into sexual harassment and violence. Contrary to much existing research, it was seen as crossing class boundaries and the particular preserve of the privileged." (p.28)

    Further:

    "‘Lad culture’ was thought to be particularly influential in the social side of university life. Extra-curricular activities and sports in particular were singled out as key sites, and it was reported that sexism in such environments could spill over into sexual harassment and humiliation. ‘Nightlife’ was described in similar terms, with many participants relating experiences of sexual molestation and identifying pressure to engage in a high frequency of sexual activity with different partners. This was thought to be perpetuated by outside agencies such as club promoters and events companies. The operation of ‘lad culture’ in
    social settings had caused many participants to alter or limit their activity, confirming interpretations of ‘laddism’ as a means by which privileged men police and preserve territory.""

    I'd urge you to read the findings of the report on the subject. A final couple of points I'd note are that firstly the fact that nobody talked about lad culture before the NUS did doesn't mean that it wasn't a problem before. It seems quite likely that in fact the reason for the discourse on lad culture at present is entirely because the NUS began to talk about it. Secondly, spiked seems to forget the unions are allowed to do whatever they want. If they want to ban page 3, lads mags and blurred lines, then that's up to them.
     
  4. Coastie

    Coastie Aerospace Pony.

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    You're not the only one (the bit about opinions, not the bit about ranting at Mark :))
     
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  5. servirare

    servirare hmmmmm

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    I supposed if anyone asked I would confirm that I'm a feminist. It's not something I've gone looking out for, but I've been labelled as such for whatever it's worth.

    Often whenever feminism comes up, the issue of men's rights comes up too. I think that's 50% a red herring and 50% missing the point. It's a red herring because being for one cause doesn't mean you must be against another. There's no dichotomy here.

    On the other hand it's also missing the point because a lot of the issues brought up by feminism are also harmful to men who don't want to conform to precisely whatever it is everyone seems to assume "being a man" is today. The desire to fit in and "be a man" causes all sorts of stress and damaging behaviour. It doesn't involve women directly, but it is predicated on the idea that being woman like is bad and therefore one must be as manly as possible.

    I think @blissfully✮oblivious covered some of the consequences pretty well:

    And those gender roles can only be eliminated when women are seen as precisely equal to men. Only then will deviating from traditional manliness be seen as not a bad thing. And at that point men will be able to take on roles such as primary carer without experiencing the sort of behaviour that @Tak and her dad were subjected to (though hopefully it has got a bit better since then).

    As for dress codes: yeah the whole thing is silly. My guess is if you got discriminated against for wearing a dress as a guy, you could almost certainly win a sexual discrimination lawsuit. I'm sure I remember reading about that a while back. It doesn't mean that you won't face discrimination and you might well have a fight on your hands.
     
  6. Pony X

    Pony X Unsilent Majority

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    When have arguments of this sort ever damaged friendships? Just because people disagree is no reason to end friendships.

    There's no problem if all people involved consent to it.

    Is a minority like that enough to be part of 'rape culture'?

    Brooks Newmark, caught in a sting operation. There seems to be a double standard when everyone was decrying naked photos of Jennifer Lawrence being released, yet a Tory MP getting duped by a newspaper into sending a nude photo is regarded as acceptable. Both cases are violations of an individual's privacy.

    I would read it, but I don't have time to go through 84 pages.

    What I will say is this: maybe I'm wrong and spiked has indoctrinated me.

    Only spiked actively campaign against that sort of thing.
     
  7. Britpoint

    Britpoint 私、きになります!

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    On this point we can agree! Our debate may be somewhat heated at times but I've not felt it disrespectful.

    Yes, that is a weird double standard. I don't think it's acceptable for a journalist to trick someone into sending them nude photographs. I think this is a case of people thinking MPs are evil and therefore anything goes. If a journalist had done this to a celebrity or a private citizen who made a fuss about it, people would be outraged.

    Your original question was whether I felt this case was a part of the 'rape culture' I believe exists. Now I know a little more about it... tentatively yes? I mean, it's not a case of the general public looking at his body uninvited as was the case with the hacked celeb photos, but it is still being tricked into having his body exploited for a purpose he did not intend. That apparently anyone can find that kind of exploitation acceptable is pretty horrible.
     
  8. Cloudane

    Cloudane Element of Mostly Excessive Verbosity

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    Whilst I have no desire to wear a dress (though I wouldn't say no to a robe, they all say I'm a wizard :)) it'd certainly be nice for guys to have that ability.

    But the thing about this kind of approach is that it might get someone a little bit of compensation but presumably it'd still be the end of that working relationship (does anyone want to work for someone they just dragged through court, or vice versa?) and quite damaging to the long term career.
     
  9. servirare

    servirare hmmmmm

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    You could say the same about any reason an an employee might take an employer to court, such as wrongful termination, harassment and so on. But yes, it probably will be harmful and unpleasant. The trouble is that people who set out to change the world often have a bit of a rough ride, which is why so few people do it. This, I think is why the people who do set out to change the world often come off as unpleasant and abrasive (and so are subject to character assassinations) because a normal, go-along-to-get-along type person wouldn't take up such a fight.
     
  10. sleumas2000

    sleumas2000 The Like Monster Approacheth!

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    Well, this thread was heated!

    I personally believe that equality should be the norm, and no, we don't have it in modern day society.
    And, although overall, Women do have it off worse, there is still discrimination against men too. The name 'feminism' does, due to the 'extremists' (or whatever you wish to label them as), have a bad reputation - but that doesn't mean we should change it.
    I would class myself as what other people here have been calling an 'equalist' - although, as @Britpoint said [http://ukofequestria.co.uk/threads/feminism.14427/page-3#post-859160] just because I would call myself an 'equalist' I would say I'm not a feminist.
    With regards Rape Culture: I'm going to have to be careful about my words, because I don't want to cause another flame war - but I personally believe that though 'rape culture' isn't necessarily the correct term, there is certainly a culture that promotes the objectification of women, which is NOT right, and needs to be stopped. I will say, that like many men - I am guilty of not always seeing past women's bodies - but sometimes, like now, I look back at myself and to be honest, I feel disgusted at myself and at society.
    This is indeed something that needs to be addressed, and needs to be addressed now - and so I propose an Idea - if everyone (who is male) here (I will do so starting today) pledges to put a specified amount of money (e.g. £1 or 10p) aside to donate to charity - every time that they catch themselves treating anyone unequally, or objectifying a woman - then maybe we can both teach ourselves to treat women equally, and have a pool of money we can donate to either help with equal rights - or send to another charity to help others.
    Please don't hesitate to let me know if this is a bad idea - but then again, don't flame on me either pleas.
     
    #90 sleumas2000, 12 October 2014
    Last edited: 12 October 2014
  11. XBPonyA

    XBPonyA Pegulsus is best boyfriend <3

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    I find this quite amusing.
     
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  12. sleumas2000

    sleumas2000 The Like Monster Approacheth!

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    she needs to calm the buck down!
    But she does have a point!
     
  13. Urioxis

    Urioxis The dude

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    She has a couple of reasonable points, but a lot of it is lost amongst a great deal of wealthy middle class privilege and naive ignorance. Rape culture, for example, does not mean that all guys are looking for a chance to rape people and that people are not punished for doing so. It's the media that blames the victims of rape when it is reported; the universities that hush up and ignore rapes rather than informing the police; guys shouting and cat-calling at women in the street, and a whole load more. It's about a pervasive mindset in society, which is obviously more pronounced in some than in others, that it's ok to objectify women instead of treating them like people. And that's only one of the subjects she touched on.

    Yes there are a lot of people with outrageous views and who miss the point who call themselves feminists and try and force it down everyone's throats. Again, this is a problem with the umbrella term that covers everyone from TERFs, to someone who simply likes a few pro-equality articles on facebook, to those who try and go out of their way to just treat everyone the same. That doesn't mean that the movement is either dead or unnecessary. Until societal attitudes change, feminism is still very much needed and alive.

    Also, as an aside, it doesn't exactly help her credibility that she can't frame a shot properly either, choosing to fit her chest in rather than framing her face properly in a way that's natural. Nothing says "I'm saying something worth listening to" like sticking your chest out at the camera... In fact that pretty much goes to prove my earlier point. One can only assume that she does this in an attempt to gain more views from young men. She's obviously been video blogging for some time now so she's likely to know how to frame a shot by now and instead chooses not to because the fact is that young men on the internet will look at a video with a girl sticking her boobs at the camera. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that shows that feminism is still needed.
     
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  14. sleumas2000

    sleumas2000 The Like Monster Approacheth!

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    No matter how culture changes, this won't change. It's biological, and it would take a lot of willpower to not let your eyes wander down!
     
  15. Urioxis

    Urioxis The dude

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    Not really. I love boobs, but I was looking at her eyes and being annoyed that they were in the wrong place. It's not that hard, it's just basic person-to-person etiquette. You look people in the eyes when they talk to you and not their chest. Of course I noticed them, but it's pretty trivial to look someone in the eyes if you're of a mindset to treat someone as if they're a person, same as you.

    It's not just videos either. People stare at womens' chests while talking to them IRL and if you ask any woman who's experienced it I think you'll find that they would nearly universally say that it makes them feel uncomfortable and dehumanised. How is an online video any different?
     
  16. sleumas2000

    sleumas2000 The Like Monster Approacheth!

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    Part of it is natural Eye angle.
    A combination of Computer screens and looking down while I walk has brought my natural ye angle to about 11º down from horizontal - or about chest level of someone stood about 1.5 metres away (depending on the height of that person)
     
  17. XBPonyA

    XBPonyA Pegulsus is best boyfriend <3

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    I have read, watched and listened to sooooo many different viewpoints on Feminism and i agree that there are some things that need to be fixed like women not getting equal pay and so forth but i think that women thinking that all men are misogynists is just wrong not all men want to hurt women and not all men see women as sexual objects and it is unfair on men to think that, the fact that there are women out there who think that a man taking a glance at you in the street is sexual harassment just frustrates me.
     
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  18. Pigasus

    Pigasus Hogs the bed

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    Somehow I don't think that excuse would work very well in person [email protected]:
     
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  19. Pony X

    Pony X Unsilent Majority

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    On what basis are you making that judgement? Do you know enough about her life to state that with confidence? Why do think she is so privileged? Is it because she claimed not to have felt the patriarchy? Moreover, so called 'privilege' does not invalidate her opinion.
    Is there evidence for this? If this were true, then there should be an abundance of reports on rape from mainstream news sources that expressly blame the victim.
    Again, evidence? There is a problem with internal investigations. When universities investigate rape, they often disregard proof beyond reasonable doubt and deny the accused the right to use a lawyer. I do agree that the police need to be informed, to prevent this from happening.
     
  20. Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony

    Boring Ugly Pink Earth Pony The Laughing Mare

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    I've noticed a tendency amongst people with low self esteem to look at a downward angle rather that into the eyes of the person they're talking to, and this can mean that the eyes can be looking in the general direction of the chest whilst a person is more concerned with not looking the other person in the eye.
    Of course, to some types of feminists this is just taken as another excuse to chew out another evil man. The fact they they're basically victimising someone with low self-confidence just doen't strike them as a bad thing for some reason. (Replace the "evil man" with Fluttershy, and you can probably see how bad those types of feminists are really being.)
     
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