1. Sign-Up →Hey there! Welcome to UK of Equestria!
    Getting involved is easy and free! Hit the sign-up button and fill in a quick form to get active on the site.

labour party general - discussion thread

Discussion in 'In The News' started by LunaBestPony, 21 March 2015.

  1. LunaBestPony

    LunaBestPony Work, Work never changes.

    Joined:
    14 November 2012
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    81
    What do guys think about the Labour party?

    Do you guys like Ed Millaband or do you think he's not up to it and prefer Diane or Dave Millaband?
     
    #1 LunaBestPony, 21 March 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: 23 March 2015
  2. Kim

    Kim Collargogglebirdhorse

    Joined:
    4 March 2012
    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Just look at this beautiful man.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

    Joined:
    19 September 2013
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    912
    I think the Labour Party in Great Britain is a bit... not entirely right.
    First, you have the trade unions that control the thing and pretty much dictate to the Labour Party. They're like the Conservatives and hedge funds, both financed and puppeteered.
    Second, there are the party elected. Ed Miliband is probably the best example. It's almost like it's just not all there, something's a miss. Watching Ed Miliband is like taking a trip to the Uncanny Valley for me. Then Keith Vaz, all credit to him for his work in the Home Affairs Select Committee, but when he was Minister for Europe, he released a statement condemning a satirical guide book on the fictional country of Molvanîa. Not only does that show a lack of a sense of humour, but also puts his priorities in a bit of a mix.
    Finally, New Labour, the thing that left us with a deficit and a national debt that we may not be able to pay off in our own lifetimes. The irresponsible government spending and borrowing as a result seriously left us in a right state. Let's also consider the Iraq invasion, which occurred with very little reasoning. G.W. Bush went on about so called "WMD"s, and while that would be fine for domestic consumption, for Tony Blair to lap it all up and then disseminate it here, that just wasn't right. Blair would have had to either be a total idiot, incompetent in analysing the US Intelligence, or lack thereof or a man wanting to become, as historians say, a "war lord" and wage war in the name of the UK and enter the history books alongside Churchill and Thatcher for War PMs.

    I will say this however, when Labour is in government, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is always someone who does quite a large amount of good for the province. The last Secretary of State that really pushed things on and got things moving, and initiated an economic recovery following decades of conflict was Lord Mandelson. He oversaw the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the peace it created afterwards.

    Well, that's my response to Labour.
     
    Mane25 likes this.
  4. Kim

    Kim Collargogglebirdhorse

    Joined:
    4 March 2012
    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    I'd disagree slightly on the unions front. Since the 1995 modification of Clause IV of the Labour constitution (seen by some as the genesis point of New Labour) the party has gradually lost support—or at least, the unwavering support—of trade unions. Granted, unions are likely still a prominent backer, of the party for nostalgia or "best of a bad bunch" reasons, but I don't think the two are inexorably linked anymore.

    As for the deficit, most of it (something like ~80-90%?) is solely from bailing out/nationalising banks at the start of the international financial crisis; an act that ultimately was done in the interests of propping up the country's primary industry. I don't begrudge them for doing that, though I do begrudge how the current government has responded to this by stripping public services rather than taking the money back from the financial sector.

    Also I personally like Ed Miliband. He's a little gawky and weird, but that's part of why I like him; he's not a polished politician, but he's also not offensive.

    (I do so hate New Labour though. Urgh. Happy that Miliband seems intent on re-introducing more socialist principles to the party.)
     
    AppleSun likes this.
  5. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

    Joined:
    19 September 2013
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    912
    It is important to remember that at any rate, Labour still heavily relies on funds and support from the unions, and would probably be inclined to obey the hand that feeds them in this respect. Furthermore, I would be tempted to say that Labour is probably more reliant on union support than ever before now that the SNP, Plaid and the Greens are effectively viable alternatives, something I'm sure concerns the people in the party leadership.

    The decision to bail out the banks was the decision of Labour, and to a certain extent, the idea of monetarism with regard to the banks, would best apply. The banks were silly and gave out loans and mortgages they couldn't be repaid with, and as a result of their incompetence, instead of going bust, they were bailed out, or nationalised. Had the government not of bailed them out, certainly a deficit wouldn't have occurred, while people's savings and money would have been protected by legislation, and would be free to switch to a more stable bank.

    And as for Ed, being weird and gawky is not the image a world leader seeks. Weird and gawky is how I'd describe Kim Jong-Un, and we all know how he's popular on the world stage! It's probably no doubt why newspapers and non-BBC media has been so focused on Ed not being prime ministerial enough, and that he doesn't look the part.
    And the so called "Red Ed", move to a more socialist ideal, well it won't really work IMO. Ever since New Labour took a sharp turn to the centre, even eyeing up the right of centre at times, it's probably shifted more people to looking more right of the spectrum *cough* Conservatives *cough*. Perhaps this turn back to the left had made the Conservatives eager to try to appeal to the old New Labour voter.
    And what becomes of Labour now? New New Labour? Old Labour?
    The problem is imaging, and trying to either distance themselves from New Labour, or trying to appear to be a parallel concept that has some New Labour ideas. That's the other issue, that this new kind of Labour is run by much of the same people as New Labour, only sans Blair or Brown.
     
  6. vcgriffin

    vcgriffin the (Quie Deaf) mustached Subgenius pony

    Joined:
    28 June 2012
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    233
    So the Labour Leadership contest has Started, and it seems we have been given a chance to have a chance to have a have a say on the future of the party.
    The Candidates are
    • Andy Burnham.(Lost out to Both Ball's and both Millibands last time. Praised for his work on Hillsborough, but an ex SPAD and government minister)
    • Yvette Cooper. (wife of Ed Ball's, long severing member of shadow cabinet)
    • Jeremy Corbyn. (Left wing candidate, has been an MP since 1983, the others were still in school)
    • Liz Kendall. (The right wing candidate, promises to say Tough things.)
    The First Hustings can be found here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0615k1w/newsnight-labour-leaders
     
  7. Cloudane

    Cloudane Element of Mostly Excessive Verbosity

    Joined:
    24 March 2013
    Messages:
    7,169
    Likes Received:
    8,262
    I saw and liked Liz Kendall in one clip, didn't see her as right wing at the time though.

    I don't want them to just be red tories again. I know that's what's most likely to get them in power, but the whole point of having different parties is for them to follow their convictions IMO even if it means they don't get elected, rather than reinventing themselves for power all the time. If that means they're always "too left" then so be it.
     
    vcgriffin and Mane25 like this.
  8. Mare Serenitis

    Mare Serenitis Night time is the right time.

    Joined:
    20 July 2014
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    277
    This.
    The Labour party died in 1994 when they "re-invented" themselves and embraced the festering crock of selfishness which is neoliberalism. (The traditional refuge of the Conservatives.)
     
  9. Cloudane

    Cloudane Element of Mostly Excessive Verbosity

    Joined:
    24 March 2013
    Messages:
    7,169
    Likes Received:
    8,262
    At the time what they did seemed to make sense and generated a huge wave of optimism. But they just basically went further to the right as time went on culminating in Blair turning into a puppet for Bush. I notice the US appear to be going through the same thing now with Obama, though my knowledge of US politics is a bit thin
     
  10. vcgriffin

    vcgriffin the (Quie Deaf) mustached Subgenius pony

    Joined:
    28 June 2012
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    233

    Her platform can be summed up in one quote


    My belief is that we lost because we tried to be so much like the conservatives in the first place, we didn't seem to be offering a difference. Its pointless to chance the 23% of voters who voted Tory, we really should be going after 77% who voted for someone else. Also as turnout was only 66% that is a hell of a lot of disillusioned citizens.

    The way to win back power (or at least to be an effective opposition) is to represent the other side. And that means being different just saying we are different, no matter how much we get pilloried in the Media. ( I know its Dianne Abbott but “If you think Ed Miliband was too leftwing you weren’t paying attention” )



    That's why I, however unwisely, and however unpopular it may seem, really want Jeremy corbin as leader, he may an old left wing socialist, but I would prefer the Party lost because it stood up for something it believed in, rather than tried to get into power for the sake of it

    [/Quote][/Quote]
     
    Cloudane likes this.
  11. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

    Joined:
    19 September 2013
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    912
    I'm paying attention to a different leadership competition seeing as I do have a vote in it, but looking at the Labour party and its leadership competition, I'm relatively confused as to who would probably be leader.
    As such I'm going to make my analysis based on that Newsnight hustings and from my almost religious following of the BBC's Daily Politics Show.

    Andy Burnham looks like the safe bet. A nice smiling man who says a lot of things which people want to hear. He's the man that could be Labour leader but could be a bit weak if confronted by Conservative attacks in the Commons. I'd call him Ed Milliband Mk. 2.

    Liz Kendall is the Blairite who isn't a Blairite. She is a fresh face, and probably create a "newer" Labour image. She's the candidate that would take Labour to the right of Miliband but I suspect to the left of Blair and Brown. She isn't a particularly weak character and could be a serious contender.

    Jeremy Corbyn appears to be the die hard, old school Labour socialist. Certainly a man who will gather up support from disillusioned Labour supporters and a strong character. However, being to the left of Labour and somewhere in the middle of the Green Party and the SNP in terms of economic ideas, he would be a miracle to the Conservatives as they would be able to say that Labour are living in the wonder world where money grows on trees and that they are the party with a grounding in the real world. Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said that she would register as a Labour supporter for £3 just to vote for Jeremy Corbyn!

    Yvette Cooper (a.k.a. Mrs Balls) is probably the candidate that isn't going to be the winner simply because she doesn't come across as strong enough and she lost her biggest asset, Mr Balls. From another source of mine (Private Eye), it appears that Mr Balls was aware that Labour wouldn't win the election and that Miliband would go opening up the leadership to him. It also seems that Miliband also knew, and as such the battle bus never went to Balls' constituency ensuring the loss of his seat. I suspect she won't win and that's the only thing I'm certain about.

    Whatever the result, it will be interesting to see who becomes Labour leader and what they will do in terms of changing the course of the party's policy. It might also effect the Conservative leadership contest that is currently happening in secret (remember David Cameron said no third term?). While most people would say Boris is the one for the job, Osborne would be more likely. Remember he took PM's Qs last Wednesday?
     
  12. Kim

    Kim Collargogglebirdhorse

    Joined:
    4 March 2012
    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Of note is that Corbyn is the only one running who doesn't have a university degree from Oxford or Cambridge. Along with his views, history, and long time in office, he's very much an older class of politician.

    So, so much this. I cringe whenever I hear people saying Labour were 'too left' when everyone I know who has stopped supporting them did so because they became too Tory-lite for them to care anymore.
     
  13. Mare Serenitis

    Mare Serenitis Night time is the right time.

    Joined:
    20 July 2014
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    277
    People bring this up all the time, and you know what? I just don't have a problem with it.
    I would much rather have the trade unions having some amount of leverage over government, as opposed to corporate interests having all the leverage as we have now.
     
    vcgriffin likes this.
  14. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

    Joined:
    9 November 2013
    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes Received:
    2,500
    So Jeremy Corbyn seems to be really gathering momentum in the last few days, with backing from various trade unions.

    (one of many articles) http://www.theguardian.com/politics...on-backs-corbyn-as-antidote-to-blairite-virus

    I think regardless of your political views, and regardless of whether he would win a general election or not, it's important and healthy for the country to have a differentiated opposition; more-so than we've had for a couple of decades.

    I'm still convinced that Labour lost the election because people didn't even know what they stood for, instead of being a party fundamentally opposed to the Tories' policies.
     
  15. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

    Joined:
    19 September 2013
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    912
    I'm starting to become quite confused as to what's generally happening with Labour at the moment, especially seeing as Labour looks like it might split in half if Corbyn does become Labour leader.
    First the unions, and Unite and Len McCluskey (both known for their support for a weaker Labour party) went flee Corbyn. Bear in mind, Unite supported Lutfur Rahman in that infamous Tower Hamlets election, one which Lutfur ran against a Labour candidate at he had become independent. So support for Corbyn is probably for an ulterior motive.

    Next thing that would bring to my mind is if Corbyn does become leader he would certainly take the party to the left, how left is unknown. That would open up the centre ground, which I'm sure my party would do well with, but that's a different matter. What it would do, is probably regain ground from the Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP which was generally lost in that election.

    Finally, there is what Nigel Farage said. While I don't believe most of what he says, it does bring to mind what Corbyn does actually think about the EU membership. I don't know where Corbyn stood back in 1975, but seeing as many anti-austerity parties across Europe have taken eurosceptic stances as a result of bailouts of certain countries. Nevertheless, Farage claimed that there was a eurosceptic in Corbyn, something which concerns me if true, which I hope isn't.
     
  16. LunaBestPony

    LunaBestPony Work, Work never changes.

    Joined:
    14 November 2012
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    81

    I don't understand can you help me understand please the E.U is the complete opposite of what I understand to be the heart of the Labour party movement which is looking after the common hard working family on low wage living pay check to pay check and giving more power to the people taking it away from cooperation's.

    The E.U is all about big business owning the world, it seeks to take power away from not just the people the individual countries as well, with the desire for the EU to seek complete union, with the ultimate goal being the dismantlement of national parliaments and the responsibility for running all public services and the power all being transferred to Europe and its un elected unaccountable Parliament.

    It would seem to me Labour would be the party most opposed to the EU but it seems most Labour supporters support the EU and when someone is outed as a possible euro septic they are treated with derision and I would like to know why this is why is it a bad thing to be skeptical of anything especially a failing economic area.

    I am not being veracious I generally find this difficult to understand and would like your opinions on the matter as I am about to get involved in the No campaign and would like to obtain as much information as possible

    look forward to your reply
     
    #16 LunaBestPony, 30 July 2015
    Last edited: 30 July 2015
  17. Loganberry

    Loganberry Element of Custard

    Joined:
    16 May 2012
    Messages:
    12,828
    Likes Received:
    8,904
    As far as unions go, I think the big news for the Corbyn camp recently was winning the support of Unison, a notably moderate union with an awful lot of members. That proves that he's not just winning over the "old-lefters" in the union movement, and probably contributed a lot to Corbyn now being the 5/4 favourite (with some bookies at least) to win the nomination.

    Personally I think it's still more likely than not that he'll fall short -- I think Yvette Cooper probably has the best chance at the moment. But Corbyn becoming Labour leader is certainly a real possibility now in the way that not many truly believed when he announced his candidature. The risk is that it will result in SDP Mark II, of course; I can't decide whether I think that's likely to happen, but it might.

    One problem (on all sides) is that, in this age of instant, internet-fuelled media, a lot of people lack historical perspective. For example, it's just not true that Tony Blair was always personally unpopular in the way he has been since Iraq. He wasn't exactly loved in 1997, but he wasn't hated by mainstream Labour voters. I know, because I was one! (It helped that first-term New Labour did plenty of things that the Tories would never have touched.)
     
  18. Mane25

    Mane25 Honorary Pony

    Joined:
    9 November 2013
    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes Received:
    2,500
    Maybe that's what needs to happen, ultimately. They're not an effective opposition at the moment, at least not in popular perception, they weren't able to persuade people of their ideas at the election (I followed the election closely and yet by the time I cast my vote I had no idea what Labour would do when in power, so I didn't vote for them), so by those accounts they aren't an effective party. I think the problem comes from trying to please the right and the left at the same time and alienating both of them, it's not working. Nothing's going to happen without a radical change in the party.

    Well going by the Green Party's stance, and the left part of Labour, the trend on the anti-austerity left here has generally been pro-EU membership but calling for EU reforms. I guess it's different in the rest of Europe because of the Eurozone.

    Well, given the Labour party's divisions I don't think you can necessarily pinpoint a specific reason of why they think a certain way, likely different people have different reasons rather than some overall ideology. My more general advice if you want to argue against the EU is to read as much pro-EU material as possible to understand what they think. I'm not anti-EU myself (I take the view it needs to be reformed) but believe the best way to learn about a particular position is to read things supporting it rather than things against it, you get a deeper understanding like that.
     
  19. LunaBestPony

    LunaBestPony Work, Work never changes.

    Joined:
    14 November 2012
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    81

    Very well said can you suggest some good material for me to read for the pro EU case
     
  20. vaska00762

    vaska00762 R6 Siege fan

    Joined:
    19 September 2013
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    912
    In a simple answer, I don't know what specific reasons Labour has for supporting the EU membership, mostly because I'm not a Labour member or a supporter, but I would be a fool of I didn't look at what the other parties are doing.

    I'm not going to bother arguing the merits of the EU here as this is neither the time nor the thread to discuss it here, but what I will say is if the Labour leadership were to take a "no" stance, it would certainly be an issue for Labour's unity as a party. This threatens the Conservative party as rebellions could rip apart the cabinet, if not the party as differing opinions exist within the Conservatives.
    Differing opinions also vary in Labour, but are much more relegated to backbenchers such as the member for Vauxhall. If it were to vary within a shadow cabinet however, it could spell a disaster for them internally.

    What I will say is that the idea that the EU is all about big business is missing the whole point. I'll concede that big business does benefit, but they can't create monopolies or use unfair practises because there are regulations blocking that.
    Perhaps one reason why more left of centre arguments for why the EU is beneficial is that regulations prevent big business from unfair practises such as price fixing and so on while also protecting workers from unfair work conditions and working hours.
     

Share This Page